March 12, 2004
-
So I was reading something on someones site, and I was reminded of a long debate I had with a member of my Church who was torn up about the proposed Marriage Amendment. There are lots of LDS people (actually, lots of every people) who are troubled about the gay marriage issue because they are against homosexuality, but do not see how the government has a right to restrict marriage. Latter-day Saints are commanded to uphold the family unit in society and in government (see the Proclamation to the World), but many feel that in this land you can’t stop people from getting their rights. Well, the fact of the matter is marriage is a privilege, not a right.
The president in the U.S. Supreme Court is that the State has every right and obligation to control marriage. Our Church discovered that fact intimately with the polygamy issue. The government stomped down hard, saying that it was in society’s best interest to forbid marriage outside of one man and one woman. Right or wrong, they had the power to do it.
The government still has that power, and it has an obligation to the people to exercise it.
I am primarily against Gay Marriage because I am against homosexual adoption. If a man wants to partner up with another man, that’s his choice. But if a man wants to create a family with a man, well that’s a different issue (and maybe he’s watched too much Full House).
Choosing to enter a relationship with someone of the same sex has certain consequences (and yes, it is a choice to become partners with someone). Those divine consequences include: the loss of the ability to have children, the loss of marriage, and the loss of Church privileges. There are also legal consequences, like the loss of insurance benefits and tax benefits for families. When you legalize marriage, you take away those consequences.
It may seem like it is not a big deal to lose some of those consequences, but it is. The biggest deal is with children. I believe that homosexuality, like any sexuality, is psychological. Genetic or not, it is triggered after birth. A child raised with two parents of the same sex is not going to be raised in a healthy envirornment. It will teach the child to embrace a psychological condition as it is, without any motion to change it. And yes, it can be changed.
The loss of other consequences will hurt society as well. Taxes, for example. Lets pretend gay marriage is legalized completely. Lets say that there’s a single guy who doesn’t like to pay taxes, but isn’t getting married anytime soon. Lets say he meets another single guy. They could get married sheerly for tax benefit reasons, not for sexuality. I don’t like that idea.
Homosexuality can be overcome. Just like pedophilia, alcoholism, pornographic addictions, etc. It can be overcome, especially when there is incentive to do so. The biggest incentive is religious, but there is also social and legal encouragement too. Let’s not take away the incentive, the consequences of certain lifestyles. Let’s not rob the gays of the choices that they made.
If a homosexual wants a family, he/she has every right to get it. All he/she has to do is get some help, some counseling, start dating, and get married to someone of the opposite sex. The children part is really quite natural, and the results can last forever.
Comments (28)
Awesome post. I wish I could give you like, 12 e-props.
You are so mature. I am impressed with the way you express yourself and stand up for your views. I, too would give you a ton more eprops. You made very well explianed points! I couldn’t have said it better!
Too much full house, ha!
I’m not going to say anything about your views (you know how I stand, nothing will really change it [much like you]), but I am going to prop you for one of your famous entries which I had missed.
Hmmm…I tend to disagree with your idea that homosexuality is a psychological problem that can be overcome with a little counselling, which to me is like saying being straight is a psychological condition that can be overcome in the same way – I think it’s simply the way a person is wired. I’m not coming down on you for having an opinion, because you’re entitled to it and I certainly don’t want you to take this the wrong way because I’m afraid it’s going to come out wrong, but honestly how much contact have you had with the gay population? I will be honest when I tell you that they are absolutely as normal as you or I and just as capable, if not more than some heterosexual couples, at raising children to normal, well-adjusted adults, most of whom marry and have children with members of the opposite sex as adults. I will give you credit for a well argued point, it was a very educated argument, but as you guessed we hold different ideas of what is appropriate and acceptable in today’s society. Thanks for giving me something to think about though.
Twelve Reasons Gay Marriage Will Ruin Society
1. Homosexuality is not natural, much like eyeglasses, polyester, and birth control.
2. Heterosexual marriages are valid becasue they produce children. Infertile couples and old people can’t legally get married because the world needs more children.
3. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.
4. Straight marriage will be less meaningful, since Britney Spears’ 55-hour just-for-fun marriage was meaningful.
5. Heterosexual marriage has been around a long time and hasn’t changed at all; just like women are property, blacks can’t marry whites, and divorce is illegal.
6. Gay marriage should be decided by people not the courts, because the majority-elected legislatures, not courts, have historically protected the rights of the minorities.
7. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That’s why we have only one religion in America.
8. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.
9. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.
10. Children can never suceed without a male and a female role model at home. That’s why single parents are forbidden to raise children.
11. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society. Heterosexual marriage has been around for a long time, and we could never adapt to new social norms because we haven’t adapted to cars or longer lifespans.
12. Civil unions, providing most of the same benefits as marriage with a different name, are better because a “separate but equal” institution is always constitutional. Separate schools for African-Americans worked just as well as separate marriages for gays and lesbians will.
Thank you Yoah Gahbage for being so civil and intelligent about how you express you views
i do agree with many of your points. they are very much valid and understandable. however, i think there is much more to “controlling homosexuality” than just going to counseling. i know several people who are struggling with it and i can promise you that it is way more difficult to overcome than you think. this doesn’t change the fact that i believe gay marriage is wrong. i absolutely believe so. still, i think we should be more gentle in our views on such matters. it hard to know what people go through. -lorie-
I agree that “a little counseling” was a huge understatment. People who want to change can suffer from same sex attraction for years. I think that those who have over come it deserve a lot of respect. A lot. Evergreen International
completely unrelated, but I met your homecoming date tonight! sweeet girl!
Hey Dan. I really respect the fortitude and persistence you have with all of your beliefs, both religious and otherwise. That is something not found in most people. I think you are honest and forthright, and so I think that you are also willing to listen to other people.
I’m not trying to change your mind, in fact I patently refuse to do that. My question is, how do you feel about marriages between people of different races? Not long ago, that was also illegal, but it is no longer. I struggle with issues surrounding gay marriage because I worry that it will be exploited by people not really committing to each other but seeking tax and other benefits (ie. roomates, friends, etc.).
But then at the same time I think about people I know (and you probably know them too) who have been in committed, loving and dare I say healthy relationships for over ten years. The only difference is these relationships are homosexual. Now, I know you’r beliefs on this won’t change, and I would never ask you do to that. I just, guess I wonder how you feel about the President of a country founded by a group of mish-mosh immigrants, a country with no one religion and no one set of beliefs, can get up in front of his country of immigrants and say that he supports denying rights to a percentage of the population. To me, that is (and has nothing to do with religion – separation of Church and State) is un-American. Anyway, just my thoughts. Thanks. Lisa
The difference between race and sexual preference is that one is alterable, and the other is not. Is it unamerican to declare that pedophiles have a phycological disorder and therefore should get counciling and are banned from relationships with the ones that they are attracted too? I don’t think so.
Both pedophiles and homosexuals say that they can’t help their attractions. What is the difference? Consent. Well, I believe (some don’t), that consent is not enough. If a man wants to die, and he gives his consent to another to kill him, I believe that it is still wrong.
If there are people who feel that they have healthy relationships homosexual or not, I believe they can be happy for that, but Marriage is between a man and a woman.
Thanks for your comment, Lisa, it’s good to hear from you again.
(just browsing) wow, i was just having this conversation with a friend of mine for gay marriage and me against gay marriage and you brought up a lot of my same thoughts. you did so very maturely as most have said, and i respect you for posting about it.
I am currently writing my research paper on the subject of same-sex marriage and am very upset with what I just read. I understand that people are entitled to their own opinions, but when a person believes that homosexuality is a physcological problem I have a few questions to ask. Who are you to say that homosexuality is not genetic? Who are you to say that it can be “fixed” or in your own words overcome? Who are you to say that same-sex couples can not raise children? And finally, who are you to give same-sex couples the “OK” to marry as long as they get counseling and find someone of the opposite sex? Think about it…
Psalms23 . . . interesting. That’s a very good passage from the Bible. Do you believe in the whole Bible?
wow, you have suddenly made me very, very sad… why am i sad? because it depresses me to know that people with views like yours exist in the world. while you are totally entitled to your own opinion, it makes me sick to hear it. people are people… you have a problem with homosexuals? keep it to yourself, buddy. everything you stated was disrespectful, inappropriate, and quite frankly, disgusting. i am in such shock that you had the balls to come on here and post such a post… complete and utter SHOCK. i dont even know what else to say. peace out
I hope that irony of that statement speaks for itself.
My screen name is NOT psalms23, rather Palms23, as in Ashley Palmer. Danny, you know me so do not question whether or not I know the whole Bible, but rather why I am so strong about my opinions. I believe in equality, while I am not gay or lesbian myself, I know many people who are and who are good people that deserve every right given to U.S. citizens. Try and put yourself in their position… if at all possible. Would you like to be discriminated against and hated for something you cannot help, NOR overcome? You believe in President Bush’s comments that same-sex marriages will destroy the sanctity of marriage, but if 50% of all marriages end in divorce and the average marriage lasts only 5 years what does that tell you? Shouldn’t heterosexuals be denied the right to marry? You also stated that a child growing up in a house with parents of the same-sex will not grow up in a healthy enviornment. Children of same-sex couples grow up in a home where difference is valued. The Amendment that you believe the government has the right to pass, is in the words of the director of the Partners Task Force for Gay and Lesbian Couples, “A potent weapon of mass destruction. This extreme action is meant to cut out an entire class of people from full participation as American citizens… It is a manifestation of hatred against gay men and lesbians.” I full heartedly agree with this statement…
Haha . . . Sorry Ashley. I misread your name because Psalms 23 is such a famous scripture passage (The Lord is my Shepherd) Anyway, I hope I didn’t offend you, but Homosexuality CAN be overcome, and many have done just that. Who are you to say that it can’t be?
Well I’ll see you around, and again, sorry about that
-Dan
All I can say is that I’m stunned. You are so reassured in believing that homosexuality can be overcome that it takes the place of truth. It has been known that many times people who say they have overcome homosexuality are really faking it, and more often than not, people cannot overcome it. IT HAS BEEN PROVEN, I GO BY FACTS AS WELL AS EMOTIONS, but I do speak rationally. Why should someone try to be something they’re not? Homosexuality is genetic, therefore people cannot change it. You may be able to alter your eye color by wearing contacts, but in reality you are just disgusing the truth so you can fit into what is considered “normal” in society. But now that I bring it up, what is normal in today’s society? Is normal always correct?
I am going by experiences. I know people that have experienced a change. If you speak by facts, please give me your resources? There is no proof that Homosexuality is genetic, but assuming that it is, that doesn’t mean it is right. Alcoholism is genetic. I still believe that alcoholoics should change. Anyone can say anything is proven. Showing the proof is different.
My proof comes from many sources, including this website:
Evergreen International
Go to Evergreen-intl.org, or click above
Alcoholics. I can spell . . . lol
As you stated you are “going by experience…” What experiences would those be? Friends, family, what encounters have you had with homosexuality? If none, than how are you attributing your facts through experience? There is a major difference between intimately experiencing something vs. research on a website. Upon reading your website, Evergreen-intl.org, I noticed an underlying theme. God. Your website is a very biased opinion because the Bible does say that homosexuality is not natural, and when a website is primarily focused on religion there is no way that they will condone homosexuality or show any emotion in it’s favor. Of course they will say that homosexuality is not genetic, although researchers at Harvard, Yale, and Columbia have proven that homosexuality is biologically in your brain. Dr. Joel Gelenter makes it clear that homosexuality is in your blood at birth, similar to traits. Now it is not as simple as eye color, but it is not always aquired throughout your life time, rather decided through family lines. They believe that the “gay gene,” as they would say, is associated with homosexuality but is not always the cause of it. So, I am saying that there are many factors attributed to someones sexuality; either heterosexual or homosexual. It is also very difficult when resources i.e. hundreds of thousands of dollars, are needed to perform many genetic tests, which have not been provided. But, back to your website for a brief moment, they believe that “True healing and peace come from God” So, in order to change someone from homosexual to heterosexual you must be religious? What if you aren’t? Then what, are you doomed to hell? I’m not religious, what’s going to be fate? Evergreen Intl. does however bring up the two sides of homsexuality in society. One pole proclaims homo-sexuality is abhorrent and must be shunned personally and socially. The other pole insists it is genetically determined and should be embraced and encouraged. Clearly, when debating with you the sides have been determined…
Ashley,
I will admit that I am biased. To protect the innocent, I have maintained general references, and will continue to do so. I guess it just boils down to this:
My life experiences have shaped my belief that homosexuality is not right. I believe that it causes anguish, and that sanctioning marriages for gay couples will not mitigate that anguish. I believe the way to achieve lasting freedom, happiness, and peace is by overcoming it.
Your life experiences have lead you to believe that homosexuality is not a problem, but rather that the problem is those who don’t accept homosexuals. I understand where you’re coming from, but I don’t agree with you. There are experiences that I have had that you may never have, just like there are experiences you have had that are foreign to me. I would be betraying myself to go against what my life has taught me, and so I hope you can understand why I will hold true to my beliefs.
-Dan
P. S. You’d actually be surprised about my beliefs about Hell. I do not believe that those who are not religious will go to hell. In fact, I would almost say that you have to be extremely religious to be eligible for hell, but that’s a different story.
Dan,
, but how can you maintain it? Is there an answer that can satisfy our ever changing wants or needs? Peace is a state of mind. Until we promote equality for every human being, peace cannot be achieved…
I am not posting my beliefs on your site in order to change your mind. I have no intentions of doing so because if you have been taught something your entire life, whether it is wrong or right, it is virtually impossible to change your opinions. I enjoy discussing a variety of subjects with people to understand their beliefs. I do not claim to know everything, which is why I am willing to listen. It is clear that I do not agree with you because gays and lesbians should not be discriminated against. PERIOD. I agree with homosexuality because love knows no boundaries, including gender. Numerous experiences in my life have shaped my beliefs on the subject, and clearly religion plays a major part in shaping your views. I wish every citizen acquired every right, because that would promote equality. How is it fair to deny people their basic rights?… even though you believe marriage is a privilage. You bring up three major ideas: Freedom, Happiness, and Peace, only achieved by overcoming what?… homosexuality in general or anguish? Do you think you’re free? I feel trapped in a town I’ve lived in most of my life and can only claim to be free when I leave. But is that what freedom is.. or does it go deeper into releasing your mind, body, and soul. Happiness is fulfilling. Simple things in life can bring you happiness, orange juice for example
~Ashley
For the record, it was not just Religion that shaped my experiences.
Hello,
You don’t know me but I have been keeping up with the posts here because of my interest in this topic. I thought that maybe if I shared my views it would help to ease the tension between you two. I personally do not believe in homosexuality. But, even though I don’t support their actions, I also choose to love the people with all of my heart. Being also LDS, my religion teaches me to love all people, regardless of what they do or believe. Because I feel morally obligated to stand up for what I have always been taught doesn’t mean that I am discriminating or persecuting gays. We are blessed to live in this amazing country where people are allowed to choose how they live and what they believe in. I know, from my reading, that you both believe in God. I know that God has a plan for this country and he will guide the leaders of it to make the choice that will bring the better good. I do not believe in gay marriage for the fact alone that the first commandment given on this earth was to have children and start families, and so because of my beliefs I will continue to fight for what I feel is right. From reading your posts and comments, I can tell that both of you have such a great love for all people. And so just remember, that because of your differences you have the chance to show others how to love as well. The people who hate and commit terrible crimes agaisnt gays do not have the same love that is needed to make a difference on one side or the other. It is important to realize how lucky we all are to be living here in America where tolerance is our creed. I know that the Lord is looking after this promising land and guiding those in power to make the right decisions, whether it be pro or against gay marriage. He knows, what actions need to take place in order to prepare the world for the 2nd coming of his son. Even, if what happenes doesn’t follow the plan that seems logical we all just have to trust that our government (to which we put in so much faith) will make the right choice. But…of course that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fight for what we believe in.
I agree with you that gay marriage is wrong. It supports sins against self, others, and the family in general; as if sins against God weren’t bad enough. We cannot tolerate any sin, however, so if a man decides to begin a homosexual relationship with another man, it’s not just “his choice”, as you put it. Maybe I read it wrong, but it seems to me that you’re saying that a person’s choice is just his choice and therfore does not affect others as much as it really does. Unfortunately, homosexuality, just as any other sin, has the result of affecting everyone around it.
I also disagree with one of the consequences from homosexuality. It does not result in the loss of the ability to procreate, I have no idea where you came up with that idea. Just look at any gay male couple trying to have a child by artificial insemination and you’ll see that it works just as easily as a single guy who wants a child, but is not in a married relationship, so he asks a woman to be artificially inseminated in order to have that child. So…gays can still have kids.
I completely agree with you that homosexuality is a psychological (or “nurture”) thing. While sinful tendencies may be genetic, we really don’t know that for sure, all choices for sin are deliberately chosen within one’s mind. I also agree that people can change from homosexuality to heterosexuality and vice versa. What I do disagree with is that children are guaranteed to become that which they are raised under. Just because a child is raised in a homosexual “family unit”, there is no way we can say that the child will become gay. I will tell you now something I have yet to be completely open about on xanga thus far. My mother is gay and has been for about 10 years. I am a junior in college, so I was raised about half of my life under two homosexual women. I have never been, and never will be, a homosexual. My sister, likewise, is not a homosexual. Perhaps we can dialogue about this more, but I must disagree on you concerning this point based on my personal experience.
Despite all of the comments that are pro-gay, that viewpoint is still not supported by the Holy Bible. For instance, YoahGahbage has numerous fallacies within his 12 points. Psalm23 as well must realize that what is being said is not discrimination, it is the speaking of truth; but I do applaud Psalm23′s use of language: you sound super-spiritual, and that means you’re right? I unapologetically say “no”, you are wrong. Unfortunately, people who are in homosexuality or sympathetic heterosexuals deny truth for lies, and right for wrong. People in any type of sin warp truth to fit their wants.
Oops, I misread the name as well. Palms23, got it.